Industry Insider: Reducing Pro-Form Abuse
ADMIN
- October 16 2008
- 2,244 views
- 63 comments
Industry Insider is a new Transworld Business column featuring the views and opinions of, you guessed it, members of the action sports industry. If you’d like to share your thoughts, opinions, initiatives, or other industry related tidbits, drop us a line at business@transworld.net.
By: Dennis Nazari
President, Salty Peaks Snowboard Shop since 1987
Curator of the Utah Snowboard Museum
A small percentage of people seem to screw up a good thing for everyone else: Pro-forms are a great way for manufacturer’s to move a little more product, increases exposure on the hill and get it to those who are closer to retail end consumers, and have the ability to sway those retail end consumers to buy their brand instead of someone else’s, but all too often the chain of distribution for pro-forms gets broken in any one of a number of ways. From reps or those entrusted with pro forms using them to get free meals, trade or keeping the town hookup girl happy to the shop owner that buys more gear under pro-form to reduce cost or trading them for other goods or services, to the shop kid that gets a pro-form from every manufacturer possible and uses them to hook-up roommates or buys to resell the gear on Ebay and make a profit…and the list goes on
The abuse of pro-forms hurts the health of the retail industry in many ways:
1) It can lower the retail value of items in the retail end consumers mind
2) It can result in product ending up in undesirable distribution channels
3) It can change the way retailers handle warranties and returns, thus hurting the manufacturer in the long run
4) It can cost retailers time and money
Most retailers have experienced the shopper that has them pack boots back and forth to find the right size and fit, but when they find the boot that works and you’re ready to close the deal, the shopper says, “No, I’m not buying them now. I just wanted to see what size to order on my Pro-form” only to find out that this obviously ‘not in the industry’ shopper is a friend of a friend whose buddy’s sister was dating the sub rep of that company. Pro-forms, just like promo gear, are given out because the company wants something in return. They don’t give it away just because they like you; they expect you to be in a position to help them out by influencing retail consumers to buy their gear. Whether it’s a free t-shirt you wear as a billboard advertisement for the brand or a discount on a snowboard that you can talk about when selling snowboards (yeah, this is what I ride). Whether you’re an instructor, repair tech, liftie, or the beach front property of retail influence, the “shop guy”, there are many ways you can influence a retail consumers purchase.
There is an unwritten law of expectations in this little arrangement that should be written.
Ryan West
Photo: Adam O’Neill
One way to communicate the expectations of pro-form use or free gear is to have the employee, shop owner, or rep sign an agreement of understanding, which could include penalties for abuse. For the last several years, Salty Peaks has been using pro-form agreements to prevent abuse and increase employee retention by having all employees sign for pro-forms or free gear. It goes a little like this: Little Johnny is getting a pro-form or free gear from ____ because he works at the shop and is expected to work at the shop the whole season until a pre-determined date and that if Little Johnny quits or gets fired before that date, then Little Johnny agrees to either have a deduction on his last paycheck of $50-$100 per pro-form, depending on if it’s a hard good or soft good, or pay an increased cost that would bring the cost of the item closer to the retail value of the item or in the case of free gear, they would either pay a predetermined price for the free gear or return it and pay a substantially lower price to have used it or a ‘rental fee’. In addition to this financial agreement, it’s a great time to spell out other expectations like items are not to be resold before the end of the season, not to end up on Ebay, is for personal use only and not to be given to anyone else for any reason, etc. By doing this, it makes clear the reasons why Little Johnny is getting the hookup and a few of the ways he can screw it up so if nothing else, you know he’s aware of the expectations and can’s say “I didn’t know” and it can be a valuable tool for a shop owner or rep to correct poor or slumping work performance and for the drama queens that tend to walk at the first sign of trouble, it makes them work a little harder towards a resolution to problems and fixing the problems that lead to being unhappy in the first place, as most shops or reps would rather fix problems with employees instead of retraining a new employee. If more shops or reps did this, it would greatly reduce the level of abuse of what should be a beautiful thing and restore the integrity of the pro-form cycle.
Another idea is having those not in the retail chain (instructors, lifties, resort personnel) to have a local shop sponsor associated with their application for a pro-form, in which resort employees at least has one shop that they send people to for gear when asked. If the resort employee can list two or three shops that they are aware of, this would help manufacturers determine if the resort employee would be sending customers to a shop that sold their brand and make manufacturers aware of which shops have the support of resort staff and could even make manufacturers aware of a new shop they should be in.
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October 16th, 2008 at 8:07 am
Great article and good to see the shop perspective on proforms. I wrote up about honesty, integrity and proforms on my site after having issues with friends wanting use of my proforms and choosing honesty. http://www.shayboarder.com/2008/09/honesty-integrity-and-proforms.html
It’s definitely a topic that is hitting shops, companies and people more often now when people abuse the power.
October 16th, 2008 at 8:25 am
This is a subject that was being discussed last night at one of our many clinics this year. As a person who has been involved in the retail end of this industry for over 14 years now, I too am frustrated with the amount of proforms that are distributed every year by the companies, and how there is no accountability for how the distribution. It is discouraging to know that a large percentage of people that use proforms are not even affiliated with our industry. I think that this abuse has gone on far too long, and there needs to be industry standards set by the larger companies, so others will follow. The number of items allowed should be limited to far less than what is, in most cases. This always leads to people abusing the opportunity and reselling the product, and in the end the shops end up losing more customers and sales. I see the abuse first hand living in a major university town. Our college snow clubs are notorious for gaining access to proforms, but not having any affiliation with the industry, other than the fact that they go riding once or twice a week! I also see it on the mountain with the weekend employees that are working for the “free pass” and on the local level with shop employees, and our local representatives handing them out to friends that “hook” them up (wink wink)! I agree with Dennis that there needs to be accountability with the companies and the shops. I would like to see all proform transactions be taken through the retailer, but with standards set in place. I also think that the retailer should be able to make a 10-20% margin off of the proforms too. This way at least there is some traffic brought to the shops in one form or another and we are not feeling like we are just being used by people that we help with our knowledge and time. If “Joe Shmo” says that he is supposed to get a proform and the industry representative agrees, then lets set it up, otherwise, support your local retailer. Help us to be able to increase our orders for the companies as they desire every year, and make shops more sales so everyone is happy in the long run. Everyone knows that retail is not as glamorous as it may seem to the outsiders. We live for getting people in the right product, so they can have fun on the slopes and so when we see them out there everyone is stoked!
October 16th, 2008 at 8:26 am
Pro forms are so over distributed. A former burton employee told me they give them away like water. From the hairdresser to the kid who was a support rider 5 years ago. I mean c’mon people. Not to mention all the samples flooding the market. No wonder ebay is so huge and shops are struggling. Does anyone even care anymore? Its pretty ridiculous. Does burton or quik care, Hell no Everyone need to cut there prebooks with these sluts
October 16th, 2008 at 8:42 am
suck it up you cry babies - people who abuse proforms are probably less than 1% of your sales. as for fit-offline-buy-online, maybe it is time you create a website and start selling online yourself. it’s time to evolve and quit whining about change. welcome to the future.
October 16th, 2008 at 9:02 am
I don?t think holding a proform over a shop kids head is the right approach, you want them to feel stoked on the product not that they just sold there soul for it. Maybe offer have a probationary period before they are eligible for a proform is the way to go and for the first three months they can buy product at half the staff discount. But to make them fork over cash if they get sacked or quit will blow up in your face cause he will tell all his buds never to go to store because you screwed him for 50 or 100 bucks. So the money you got from him could cost you thousands in sales. Yes the amount of proforms needs to get reduced and ya it?s unfair cause large company have more product to toss around and it hard for the small guys to get that grassroots marketing, but at the end of the day it is survival of the fittest, and if you start placing rules and regulation on proforms it will go against the whole purpose of what they are meant for. The person at the end of the line isn?t gona want to sign in blood just to get some free stuff.
October 16th, 2008 at 9:24 am
Great article. Good to see retailers respond…
October 16th, 2008 at 10:31 am
doesn’t sound like you are a retailer. You are part of the problem or clueless. Ebay is reality, but someone who is a friend of a person who has a friend should not be getting retail. All of it drives the overall margins down. I don’t care how good your store is. Everyone wants a deal. These will catch up with manufactures in the end.
October 16th, 2008 at 10:33 am
I agree dennis is a little overboard here. I am sure he buys alot on proform himself. He really has never been one out to make friends.
October 16th, 2008 at 1:24 pm
retailer? no. in the industry, yes.
my point is that proform abuse is a very minor issue compared to the many other reasons local shops are failing.
i’m all for supporting my local shop, but i won’t pay more for limited selection just so the shop owner can live out their dream. the reality is online shops and direct to consumer offer more variety at a lower price. that is a simple fact that crying won’t change.
shopatron is a step in the right direction because it is a hybrid of online shopping w/ local shipping.
good luck!
October 16th, 2008 at 2:33 pm
thats not a surprising response from a non retailer. WHat is paying more? Is that paying retail? Do you really think shop owners are getting rich? It may be minor numbers to some , but I bet burton moves a couple thousand set ups on proform. You may think online is the future, but I bet you will be bummed when you can’t go down the local shop for something you need today, not to mention how lame the thought is of everyone in the world sitting in front of computers getting fat buying stuff. It won’t be me, Have fun
October 16th, 2008 at 6:47 pm
Its fairly obvious Pro Form abuse is out there. From the douche bag asstructors that don’t do anything to promote a company all the way down to the shop kids that are just selling the shit. Has it hurt the shop I work in? Yeah it has. I’ve had to deal with stupid asstructors coming in with that I’m all high and mighty attitude wanting me to fit them so they can order the boot. When they tell me what they’re doing I say either pay me 10 bucks for my time cash on the spot or leave.
I think its funny when I run into some ass hat that is bragging about how they got a proform and they’re “hooked up”. All they’re doing is making the brand look bad.
This past winter we carried pro stock for the first time and it worked out well we bought it from a company for a specific cost, only sold it to people that could prove they deserved it. We only gained I believe a 20% mark up but it worked. Not saying its the answer but its a possible solution.
I don’t think holding a pro form over a shop kids head is a great idea in any capacity. There is a trust level that needs to be established between employer and employee if that can’t be attained the shop hurts.
There’s points I agree with and points I don’t. One thing needs to be realized snowboarding is not a poor mans sport and incentives need to be there if a company wants to push a product same with a shop moving merchandise.
October 16th, 2008 at 7:08 pm
Actually, The idea that Burton “give(s) them away like water” when talking about proforms could NOT be further from the truth. The number of proforms handed out from Burton Reps and insiders has been cut back DRASTICALLY over the last few years. Proforms are a problem and they always will be difficult to control, however Burton has taken a stance that supports retail. I agree with Dennis in the fact that there is nothing worse than helping someone with a pair of boots that that customer ends up buying on proform. I think the industry knows its a problem and the industry cares to make a difference. Companies do not make very much money off proforms …it is not a cash generator but rather a breakeven.
October 17th, 2008 at 7:33 am
well if thats true, then I don’t see why I have had 2 people in the last week come in with those things. I think instructors should have to build relationships with a store and somehow get them thru that shop. That way they would have a good relationship with a retail place to direct the customer. Anyways this battle has been going on for 20 years, It will probably never get fixed, but its fun to argue points
October 17th, 2008 at 7:41 am
This article is the kettle calling the pot black. I suggest Dennis open his books so we know how much he has benefited from proforms. I bet it is a lot. I also agree Dennis has gone out of his way to piss off alot of people in the industry and in the vintage snowboard market.
Grow up and stop whining Dennis and the rest of you.
October 17th, 2008 at 7:43 am
With that hair is Dennis trying out for the Butthole snowboard band? This is a new century, try joining it instead of trying to look like a 20 year member of Nirvana.
October 17th, 2008 at 7:51 am
careful, I might put my camera on you? check my ebay page u12
seriously though the most annoying part of proforms is the people who use our inventory for fit, and waste our time grabbing boots. If you have one and you need help then just be up front. I am way more interested in helping a proformer out who is upfront. That way if I need to help another person I won’t spend time on the non sale and lose the other sale
thanks
October 17th, 2008 at 12:00 pm
just got sent the link and I’m glad to see people agree and want something done about it but it sounds like “yeah right” and “someone who knows” have a personal beef , maybe disgruntled competitors or ex employees?
I’m sure the administrator would know ,if you really want to talk about it give me a call 801-273-8770.
truth of the matter is salty peaks has never used a single pro form for purchase of store stock EVER!
i challenge any rep or manufacture to prove otherwise.
and i cant recall ever using a pro form for any personal purchase since starting the shop in 1987
back in the day when gray marketing was happening we were the only shop not taking the money thus supporting the brands and the industry.
as recently as this summer when we found out our customers were buying 09 skate bananas at retail and re-selling them on eBay for upwards of 900.00,
(lib boards sold on eBay don’t have a warranty any more according to lib)
knowing lib’s policy about not selling boards on eBay and respecting that policy we tried to help them out by putting a self imposed “one board per customer limit” on boards , the boards quit popping up on eBay but unexpectedly it did create more of a frenzy for the new technology.
sure we could have “taken the money” but its not always about the money some manufactures actually care about their products on eBay and online sales, Mervin and never summer are 2 companies that do genuinely care and that kind of support for the retailer (like not selling direct online)will always gain my support.
when we see abuse we try to find ways to stop it that was the basis for the story , sure its not perfect but its a start and at least we are doing “something” you see any tears? not from me.
its true we do things a bit different than the other guys and through sticking to our guns and principals we have pissed off some people, and fired a few employees over the years but the bottom line is you cant make everyone happy.
sounds like maybe you got out bid on a old board you wanted at the last second ?
sorry bro, next time step up !
oh and the hair, its a “bush” thing it should be over in January as long as McCain is not president sorry its causing you grief.
maybe i will show up to sia in a speedo and really give you something to be upset about
October 17th, 2008 at 2:40 pm
nice dennis,
I have no beef with you,and I would not expect you to admit to buying on proform to resell. This isn’t really the issue with the article is it? Proforms are given out to non industry people and that is the true problem. I guess as corporate takes over it will continue being a problem. Also please don’t let us see you in a speedo.
One last thing I never have or would work for you. Look how that worked for drew and rich. I also would not consider us competitors.
October 17th, 2008 at 3:48 pm
How the hell is Lib knowing what boards are coming from Ebay? Last time I checked their boards, which was about a week ago I didn’t see any serial numbers.
If its coming down to the whole you have to have a reciept concept thats great till some whiney kid cries and says well it was a gift from my NANA and she’s dead now or some other bull shit excuse like that.
I commend you on trying to find a way to crack down on it. But seriously charging cash on pro forms from employees? Its their money purchasing gear for themselves. I think the biggest problem is the turn over and attrition rate in retail. I saw it last year with a ASM that was hired over me because she was supposedly more qualified she snagged a board, but here I am the lower level employee that was constantly given items that I made sure no one else in the shop wanted. I think some fault lies on peoples lack of morals and the greed that lurks in their souls.
October 19th, 2008 at 1:33 am
online is only growing due to people becoming more busier…. there will always be retail…. people like shopping…. buy yes online is and will continue to grow…. the masters will understand how to mix the both together!
October 20th, 2008 at 3:48 am
dennis, is this why you have such retards working for you? because you charge them for proforms and have them sign contracts defining the minimum length of employment? the only people you can get to work for you are the ones that want that new analog team length tee so bad they’ll do anything? isn’t utah a right to work state anyhow?? what if your boss is an asshole? i can’t take a better job because you’ll charge me the difference between proform and retail if i don’t stay a year? whats the average turnover in retail anyhow? maybe if you paid people a little better and weren’t such a tightass you’d manage to keep managers. get real!
regardless, i agree at some level that proform is abused. burton hooks up every paid-turns-only instructor i know. shop kids who rock next years limited edition, cobranded gear with elitist salty peaks attitudes make me sick. i see you do 50 laps a day in the park but you only 5050 the boxes. hmmmmm.
BUT, thats our industry, right? hookups are essentially based on the perceived status of the rider. so if you’re a shop kid and you look the part, well… i guess that works for burton. and if you’re a 30-something year old instructor talking to punters all day long that have no idea that you’re full of shit suggesting the new custom because it’ll help them turn. well, i guess that works for burton (and as an extension: salty peaks).
one last thought: the only people that go to salty’s are newbs anyhow, so if proform is hurting anyone its milo or the click. methinks you might want to think long and hard about what’s *really* hurting your bottom line dennis.
cheers, big ears.
October 20th, 2008 at 8:57 am
Lots of good (and bad) chatter on this one. I agree wholeheartedly that the Industry has to take responsibility to help this perceived problem, but also agree the problem is a minor one. Brands like Burton have started to patrol potential areas of abuse such as shutting down auctions on eBay, sales on online messageboards and even Craiglist.
It certainly is a valid point to ask that proforms limit the amount of gear that one can purchase. Over time it seems like the amount you can get from one manufacturer has increased. The idea of routing proforms through a local shop is a good one. Even if you don’t “charge” a percentage, making someone pick up their gear at a local shop will increase retailer traffic and most likely result in an additional sale (even if it is just a video or wax).
As a former shop rat and former instructor (warning: don’t work for a shop now so are my comments not worthwhile?), the idea of someone hanging a proform over my head as a way to keep me on staff or to pay them $$ for it if I leave is downright insulting. I understand the idea of making sure an employee doesn’t abuse it, but I would counter, isn’t up to the shop manager or owner to select the right employees vs making them sign away part of their paycheck for cheap gear?
I wonder the percentage of kids who come into try stuff on or get fitted for ProForm compares to the number of people coming in and trying stuff on and then going online to purchase it?
Online, eBay, proform, etc. are challenges/competition, but the good retailer will adapt with a hybrid mix (as mentioned) or to work with manufacturers to create a (pro)gram or (bro)gram to help those that “deserve it.” I can think of two of my fav EC retailers: Eastern Boarder and Darkside who seem to have made a solid transition to including online shopping into their mix.
I hope some of this rabbling makes sense.
October 20th, 2008 at 9:11 am
its stupid to assume a proform sale is a lost sale to the industry/shop anyway. i buy more stuff on PF that i would ever buy retail. that money is going into snowboarding, just not your pockets.
October 20th, 2008 at 9:51 am
Great piece Dennis. Pro-forms should be viewed as a privilege, not a right and we should do our best to limit abuse.
In other industries, they don’t have pro-forms. A former colleague of mine is the head of PR at a pretty large tennis brand. I was discussing pro-forms with him and he said they didn’t have that in place. Either you’re a ranked player getting a discount or you need to know someone at retail. No “bro of pro” sort of thing.
He was intrigued that as an industry, we give discounts to people who may have influence over others in their purchase decisions, but like we’re seeing here, the potential for abuse is huge.
The action sports world has been at the forefront of influencer marketing for decades, without ever calling it that. Unfortunately, a few bad apples are taking the opportunity to convert their influencer status into mini-ebay stores.
October 20th, 2008 at 3:38 pm
Some of the brands my shop deals with don’t have official pro form cards but give the discount if I order product and say it is for employees or team riders. This way cuts down on a lot of abuse as I couldn’t order a bunch of product for the store with out raising a red flag. Also me the retailer and the brand have much more control over who is getting discounts and that they deserve to be getting it.
October 20th, 2008 at 4:01 pm
seams like the haters need to go back and re-read the article.
many of the comments reguard things that are covered in the article.
whats worse,
to be told you are not a pro form worthy employee and that by the time you have been here long enough to get a pro form or become “worthy” that all the good stuff is gone and sold out?
OR
sign this letter of understanding and here’s your pro form thanks for doing a great job and being apart of our team.
since starting this program we have successfully reduced turn over and increased commitment and education of others, we invest a lot of time and training in making our employees the best in the industry,and we want to take care of the ones that are taking care of business.
it seams some of the responders may have had experiance with or heard from someone who has been fired at salty peaks, it can be a bit embarrassing to get fired from a snowboard shop i understand that but
things like pro forms , discounts, shop passes, bonuses,health care paid time off are all privileges NOT ENTITLEMENTS.
unlike many other shops we teach our employees the importance of not abusing privileges as every shop owner knows there are good employees there are bad employees and there are great employees.
we choose to spend our time and efforts on the good and great employees and want to weed out the bad apples with poor work ethics and boot them to the curb as soon as it is apparent they don’t have the skills to be a productive part of the crew.
bad employees are the number one source of bringing down good employees, even more than a tight ass boss .
the shop has the discretion on weather the agreement is enforced or not the only time we have ever enforced the agreement is when a bad employee is not living up to his expected level of performance and gets fired after multiple warnings or was caught abusing the program and was fired.
i think this has happened twice in 4 years so the guys that know the program have no problem signing the agreement because they know they wont be caught abusing it, its the ones that have a problem with it that you might want to worry about.
today there are many industry positions that are filled by ex- salty employees and companies that have been created by ex-employees of salty peaks, many of these ex-employees still have love for the shop or have said how much they learned from their time at salty’s or how they have adapted what they have learned at salty peaks into their own businesses or industry positions, so we must be doing something right
October 20th, 2008 at 4:13 pm
IT IS APART OF THE ARTICLE!
because its one of the ways pro forms are abused.
you dont need me to “admit” to it the reps and sales managers know and like i said above
” truth of the matter is salty peaks has never used a single pro “form for purchase of store stock EVER!
i challenge any rep or manufacture to prove otherwise.
and i cant recall ever using a pro form for any personal purchase since starting the shop in 1987
October 20th, 2008 at 4:21 pm
dennis, we do not know each other, but we both live in the same hood. i have walked by your house and said hello to you and your lady friend, to which you have both made grimacing faces at my wife and i several times (not sure why at all). then i noticed and was stunned by ‘this property is under 24 hr. surveillance’ signs every three feet (no joke)-why the paranoia?
i know some kids that have worked for you in the past-all really good people (and i do compliment you on selecting friendly, hard working folks), however the fact that the employees, as well as us (the customers) are under hidden video camera surveillance and have to have our receipts checked off by your (and i am not kidding here) door guard… is insulting. i like the fact that you carry mervin… i bought one from you once (even though i have been getting p/f’s from them for years), but was put off by almost being padded down as i left the shop with the board.
i believe i understand why-when i go into salty peaks to size my libs (before ordering them off pro forms now)-there are NEVER the same faces working there. former employees, i have talked with, are over you policing them while they work (and you sit at home watching them on your cameras)-and when you are not seemingly suspecting your employees and/or customers of ripping you off… you police the industry.
dude, give it a rest… and stop moving closer to milo, it’s noticeably embarrassing.
October 20th, 2008 at 4:24 pm
“i do” every day and my girl loves it.
maybe you should try to find a girlfriend and take it out on her with some angry sex it might help you with your anger issues.
October 20th, 2008 at 5:28 pm
well first off let me apologize if you felt i made a grimacing face at you and did not acknowlage your greeting.
i don’t recall ever having some one say hello and me giving that person a grimacing look and not say hello back, especially walking by my house
i would also appologize for the extra security at the shop , it is true we have a high end security system, and take measures to prevent theft and there have been several discussions with management on how to obtain a balance between security and making people uncomfortable in the manner you have described.
i truly appologize if you felt that way , if you have any suggestions on how to find this balance from a customers stand point i would love to hear your constructive feedback.
over the years we have had several situations were we have had shoplifters or other types of theft as all shops do,
one year we had 30 grand in shrinkage and 2 grab and runs in back to back months which prompted a door greeter and better security system and since the implementation of them we have not had a single grab and run and the number of shoplifting situations has been greatly reduced.
the vast majority of customers are not going to steal but there are always people that do when given the opportunity and they don’t think they will be caught.
most of the time shoplifting is a crime of opportunity
just yesterday milo called us to do research on some guys that stole from them hoping to get a plate number.
Milo’s cameras showed them stealing and gave us a full description of the shoplifters and times they were at Milo, we did a quick search to try and help them out and found that the shoplifters bypassed salty’s and decided to go to the easier target.
sometimes preventative maintenance can save you time, money and grief in the long run , any shop that does not have a security system is getting ripped off more than they know .
even crime in the area of the shop has been impacted, prior to increased security the immediate area around the shop had varied levels of crime from home burglaries, car burglaries, vandalism,and the coffee shop across the street has been robbed at gun point on more than one occasion but it has been down in recent years partly due to more businesses adopting tighter security.
the business i ran before starting salty peaks dealt with security transport and serving of summons etc.and required a higher level of awareness for security exposure and while i don’t necessarily like being on camera in my day to day travels it is a way of life in every town in this country, the capabilities of commercial cameras with facial recognition, plate readers and motion trackers is scary even if you don’t have anything to hide.
maybe there should be an article on shop security and how it ties directly to customer service?
any one want to chime in on that?
October 20th, 2008 at 6:33 pm
Seems like there is a lot of Pro-Dennis (by Dennis) and Anti-Dennis (by others). I’d like to respectively ask we stay on topic. This thread is looking a lot like a friggin’ Presidential debate.
Cough, cough… is this thing on?
October 20th, 2008 at 7:01 pm
well if you could read and comprehend what your reading you wouldn’t be a tard either.
first its not a contract its a “agreement” if that’s a bit to edgy for you you could call it a “letter of understanding” it
second: it does not “have to” be enforced if someone is being cool about whatever the situation is let it slide,
but if they are being a dick tax’em for it.
its totally up to the person implementing the program
third:you don’t charge them for a pro form or free gear when they get it they sign for it, stating that they understand the rules of the privilege of getting a pro form or free gear and understand that they “could be” charged or asked to return the free gear if their employment should end before the pre determined date.
usually late season or spring when shops start to reduce the number of employees they have working for them
third if that “paid-turns-only instructor” that has your undies in a bunch (and probably is the reason you know how to snowboard today) was to have to name the shop he is going to send customers to the company giving him the hook up can see trends in what shops are supported by the instructor community and do those shops carry that companies product.
fourth: if the guy is all about Mervin product but the shop he will be sending every one to doesn’t carry Mervin then the chain is broken and the full circle affect of what a pro form is intended to do will not work as well, this also gives companies a heads up if there is a new shop in town or maybe a shop that they don’t sell to that maybe they should be selling to.
fifth: you missed the part about this program reducing employee turn over.
it has proven itself to reduce turn over that may not do much for the manufacture but it is a benefit to the shop
it’s not like this is being forced on you, no one “has to do it”
in your response you said
“i agree at some level that pro form is abused”
don’t loose sight that i’m just trying to help other shops and manufactures explore new ways to deal with the problem however big or small it might be ,maybe tighten it up a bit make it work better.
if you have a better idea throw it out there but doing nothing but bitch about unrelated issues isn’t making you look any smarter.
pro forms are not putting anyone out of business but they can be a source of frustration for the guys dealing with them.
you obviously have loyalties to another shop cause anyone that knows the kids at salty’s knows they don’t get their job by being retards in fact we send the retards away cause if they don’t know product and cant make it thrugh a 2 hour product grilling before their final interview then we don’t hire them.
they are told up front what to expect in pay and that they have to prove themselves during their review period, the rock stars move up so much faster than the slackers.
the guys and girls at salty peaks are among the smartest in the industry when it comes to the retail side of things that is why they end up going farther than the average shop kid when it comes to industry involvement in life after being a shop kid
if i remember correctly that’s why we turned you down,
don’t get mad get educated and maybe you wont have such a hard time keeping a job.
guess we cant all be hard ass t9 thugs like you can we?
October 20th, 2008 at 7:05 pm
again you need to read it the very first line says:
“A small percentage of people seem to screw up a good thing for everyone else”
online competition?? be careful what you ask for or you might be the crybaby in the long run.
October 20th, 2008 at 7:39 pm
truth of the matter is salty peaks has never used a single pro form for purchase of store stock EVER!
i challenge any rep or manufacture to prove otherwise.
and i cant recall ever using a pro form for any personal purchase since starting the shop in 1987.
in response to bhawk you don’t have to hold anything over their head if someone looks at the agreement or letter of understanding and they don’t agree “not to sell it on eBay” “or abuse it” in some way and your cool with that then no problem,
but if the kids got a problem with it you understand the chance of abuse is much higher at which case you make the decision to give it or not to give it.
you also said:
“if you start placing rules and regulation on pro forms it” will go against the whole purpose of what they are meant for
how is the shop kid to know what its meant for if you don’t lay it out for him?
do you just let your employees make up their own rules as the day goes along?
and if the kids going to quit or doing so badly that hes about to get sacked do you let him walk with that new board the rep just gave him on behalf of him working at the shop?
the reps often give shop kids freebies because they want to buy up that influence if they can , don’t you think its in the reps best interest to keep that kid around for the season also?
when was the last time you saw a rep just handing out free boards and gear to the kids in the parking lot at the resort?
they are not doing it just to give stuff away they are looking for increased sales in return in most cases.
if the kid tells you up front that he wont be there all season do you still go out of your way to do more for the short term kid over the all season kid?
do you sign agreements that you don’t agree on?
just a few things to thing about thanks for the input,
and it is true i don’t put up with a lot of crap
October 20th, 2008 at 7:45 pm
no you don’t see it in many other sports not even bro bra based skateboarding,
October 20th, 2008 at 7:54 pm
that’s a great idea , just trying to respond to questions about the article,
so if you have a personal beef just call me and tell me what you really think,
my number is listed above
October 21st, 2008 at 6:24 am
Well make an agreement with the rep, in the end he cares more about his relationship with you the with the shop kid, or at least I hope so.
October 21st, 2008 at 7:36 am
hoon. I disagree with you saying burton is shutting down ebay auctions. I have never heard of that. If burton is serious about that lets challenge them to shut down 720sports or snowandskatesupply or rufullyequipped , or the.great.white or evogear . All heavy hitters on ebay. They won’t turn down the biz. People are selling on ebay and not even trying to hide.
Go ahead burton flex some muscle. I doubt you have the balls
October 21st, 2008 at 7:48 am
Burton is and has shut down eBay auctions that are blatant pro-form violations of current year items. I’ve also seen the same for some other brands.
They tend to not give a crap about the the clearance stuff from last year or once we hit Jan/Feb (whether right or wrong). I seem to remember that big article in TWS Biz a few months ago where Burton had all the dealers sign an agreement not to offload last year’s stock to Overstock.com, etc….
October 21st, 2008 at 8:40 am
Holding it over the employees head and them making them pay money to get it closer to retail value if they’re fired or quit seems unlawful. I will research this with the Attorney Generals office and Utah Department of Labor this afternoon.
When you require the employee to pay for something that was given to the shop or “replinish” the margin
for a proformed product, where does the money go? I’m guessing most likely the Salty Peaks register even though that is money that doesn’t belong to the shop as it’s not like the shop made up that difference in margin? Why should Salty Peaks be profitting from something that they didn’t spend anything on in the first place?
A better way to handle proforms with your employees is to add it to the benefits of the shop. Make it a perk like Health Insurance or a 401K benefit. Let your employees know that until they’ve been employeed for 90 days, that they are not eligible to use a proform. When they do hit their 90 day mark, have Brand Specific quizzes set up and if they want a particular proform, tell them they need to get an 85% or better on the quiz in order to qualify for that brand.
This is going to get rid of the problem of people just working long enough to get a deal and splitting and it will keep employees from getting every brand of proform they can and then just hooking up people. Holding it over their heads and threatening to take away money that they’ve earned working on the shop floor if they decide to quit or threaten them if they do something stupid and are fired is not a way to create loyal relationships and have good employee retention in the long run.
October 21st, 2008 at 8:49 am
Check it: http://business.transworld.net/2008/06/27/fighting-to-keep-the-world-black-and-white/
October 21st, 2008 at 10:47 am
Hey Dennis…
Do you mind actually making some room in your store to actually get around if you are on crutches or in a wheel chair? When I came in the store last week I had to double check to make sure I didn’t just walk into Zumiez.
Yeah, I’m stoked to see all of the product you have compared to some other places, but it doesn’t really do me much good if I can’t get around in your store. Since I’m only temporarily on crutches, I don’t have a “leg to stand on” as far as an ADA complaint. But if someone that is classified as disabled and bound to a wheel chair or crutches is going to have a pretty clean cut ADA complaint with your store.
October 21st, 2008 at 11:08 am
thanks mike!
October 21st, 2008 at 11:31 am
Online sales have grown due to the demand by customers to get quality customer service. Dennis, don’t you have a sign in the back that says;
“Take care of our customers, because if we don’t someone else will”
Unfortunately not every shop follows that motto… Unfortunately all too often people go into stores that don’t have;
-Employees that can answer even the simplest of questions.
-Employees that give you a smart ass response when you do ask a simple question.
-Employees that are commission based and they hound you until you leave in frustration.
-Employees that won’t talk to you because you don’t have the “snowboard” look and they don’t think you can bro down.
-Employees that are obviously have to follow sales steps with customers (opening line, probing, demonstration, add-on, closing) and won’t allow you to browse and play with things on your own.
-Shops that are obviously jacking their prices up because they know a certain vendor is out of a certain product and you’re they are the only one in town left with it.
There are too many shops all around the country that don’t take care of their customers and then are the ones complaining about how online shopping is ruining the industry. Local shops not taking care of their customers are ruining the industry, not online shops taking advantage of those that haven’t been taken care of in the first place.
October 21st, 2008 at 2:25 pm
while most are too young to remember what the ski & [virtually non-existent] snowboard industry were like in the late 80s, it would be worth going back and taking a look at everything the ski industry did incorrectly in regards to hardgoods sales sustainability. oh wait, you don’t have to go back that far, just take a look at everything the snowboard industry has done incorrectly in regards to snowboard hardgoods sales over the last 10-15 years. WHY? because the snowboard industry got greedy and made every “strategic growth move” the ski industry did and essentially pooped in thier own pool. just like the ski hardgoods biz before them.
Dennis and everyone else, you have nobody to blame but yourself. And don’t make me start talking about all the products I sold to all of you since back @ Sims/Vision in ‘88, and where a lot of those products ended up [hint: not in your shops!]
we’ve still got a good thing going, ease off focus on your core, niche business and offer better products AND service than your competition. buy smart and sell smarter. same game it ever ws, just a few new wrinkles….
October 21st, 2008 at 2:26 pm
should have read like this:
we?ve still got a good thing going, ease off on the negativity. focus on your core, niche business and offer better products AND service than your competition. buy smart and sell smarter. same game it ever was, just a few new wrinkles?.
October 21st, 2008 at 3:12 pm
what does a press release prove. Actions speak louder than words. I don’t believe it
October 23rd, 2008 at 9:03 am
nice job dennis. i hate pro form abuse. any and all of you have never had to deal with it just should not have an opinion.
October 25th, 2008 at 9:05 am
opinions are like assholes. everyone has one.
October 25th, 2008 at 8:34 pm
i just dont see how you can charge 50-100 dollars for free shirts, etc and using proforms that were free from reps or companies?? do you even pay entry level employees above minimum wage?? its sounds wayyyyy shady to me, from what i read in your article you are coming across as a money grubbing dooche bag. also whats up with this “as recently as this summer when we found out our customers were buying 09 skate bananas at retail and re-selling them on eBay for upwards of 900.00″ so? they bought them from you AT RETAIL if they want to sell them on their own its on them since when it left your shop it was not your property anymore. again just observations, i do not know you nor have i ever been to your shop, so please dont post you phone number again in a response it really dosent look good.
$tay Cla$$y.
October 27th, 2008 at 7:58 am
Dennis is a lame.
October 27th, 2008 at 10:26 am
hes not saying urton is shutting down ebay sales entirely, just shutting down proform abusers who try to flip their stuff on ebay, this topic is about proforms, not selling inventory on ebay
October 27th, 2008 at 10:29 am
ok 2 people cam into your store last week, wow that really proves there are burton proforms given out everywhere?????
October 27th, 2008 at 3:12 pm
What a great thread you fella’s got going. Since I invented snowboarding, I most likely invented the proform. I invite all of you on this comment board to shop our store and I’ll give you proform price. Just buy what you like and put in discount code “wesorad” during checkout. Thank you.
Love boards aren’t included in this one time promotional offer. Tax applicable in certain states. A surcharge of 50% will be added to all orders under $500. Limited time offer. Not available in Mexico, Canada or anywhere besides Vermont.
October 27th, 2008 at 3:49 pm
I am an inside rep who works in the industry. I sell to 30 of 50 states. Unless you talk with me, you won’t receive a free board. Have to be a shop employee to pretty much get one. Don’t really see the big deal, seems like a non-issue, not that many boards going out on the proform deal really. Really nice of Dennis to stoke out the good kids. Haven’t heard anyone from Salty Peaks call me about a pro form yet! haha.
October 27th, 2008 at 3:49 pm
free board? i meant 20% off wholesale.
November 3rd, 2008 at 10:34 pm
you’re all forgetting that one of the benefits of working at a shop is pro-forms. if you take that away or restrict it too much, it’ll be even harder to find quality shop workers than it already is. abuse of pro-forms are really the fault of the manufactuers by giving to many out. but, using the sale cycle and the internet a savvy consumer shouldn’t have to pay full retail. i haven’t paid full retail in years and very rarely took advantage of my pro-forms because my shop didn’t carry what i really wanted.
November 4th, 2008 at 8:35 am
if you work in a good shop, then you should get free stuff from the reps. If you work in a lame shop then you get pro form. If you don’t work in a shop you buy it. If you are loyal to a shop you should get a deal. Its pretty simple. Happy employees are good employees. If you have alot of turnover then you are not taking care of them
November 6th, 2008 at 11:14 pm
i dont offer proforms to all my staff. simple. you need to earn one. reps are informed that they are not to hand them to staff and it’s a owner to employee bonus if they deserve it.
if an employee goes over my head they are done no questions asked.
November 5th, 2009 at 3:21 pm
the idea of the proform card is just amazing. on the other hand, all of you state that right: they get abused too quickly. people distributing proform cards should be selective, receivers should be grateful and handle it as a privileg not everyone has…